A question for ya.........
Add comments
Posted by
Clairey
I've been thinking about the whole worship thing Kina brought up quite a few blogs back, and my thoughts have come down to a question that i'd be keen to hear your answers on, cos i dont know the answer! If you are not going to worship in truth, like if you have ulterior motives, or are not meaning what you are singing/doing, is it better to not worship at all? Like what's worse - Worshipping untruthfully or not worshipping at all (which you are atleast being honest about) ???? Any thoughts?
4:00 PM
Hi Clairey,
Great question. We probably need to define what we're talking about. When you say "worship" are you narrowing it down to singing songs?
5:27 PM
Hmmm- Good one Claire Bear Bum =)
If your talking about singing, I'd say that not worshiping is probably better...I'm sure theres a bible verse about how you shouldnt pray and stuff if you dont mean it, and are just saying the same thing over and over, thoughtlessly. I guess the same thing goes for singing....??
9:38 AM
When i was first thinking about this, i think I was talking about singing, but i think it (the question/thought) overlaps with all aspects of worship, our daily worship etc.
-Clairey
8:35 PM
I don't think there is such a thing as "untruthful" worship. So in regards to singing; if you are singing a song about God that you don't mean, that is not worship. Personally, I think if you're not meaning what you sing, you should stop.
What does "worshiping in spirit and in truth" mean anyways? I am specifically interested in the "truth" part.
8:34 AM
Glad you asked that one BAndy, I was going to write that in my first comment (that it says in the bible that we must worship in spirit and in truth) but then I realised I dont even know what it means. Its one of those phrases people say lots in church/christian circles, etc, what DOES it mean?
1:46 PM
Okay, I need to start out by saying this isn't a grumpy post, just a passionate one. I'm not trying to get at anyone but to try and have a bigger picture of just what worship is...
Hmm, can the decision about choosing whether to sing or not degenerate into "I will choose whether I want to worship or not". A sort of, I'll worship but only if I feel like it. I'll worship but only on my terms.
Are there songs that make us sing things that we don't believe and aren't true? Yes. But we're trying hard, over time, to eradicate those ones. The hardest thing is finding suitable songs worthy of God (worship is about proclaiming God's worth (ship)). Is worship something that depends on me or how I feel? No. Christian worship is only acceptable to God because Jesus is at the right hand of the Father presenting perfect human worship on our behalf. If worship's acceptability depends on me and how I feel and how good my motives are, then we're stuffed! What makes our worship acceptable to God is that it is taken by Jesus up by Jesus in his Spirit and presented to the Father as perfect human worship in him. The only thing that lifts our prayers or worship beyond our roof is that by his Spirit Jesus takes our worship into his own eternal worship before the Father and makes a perfect human response to God. Hebrews and is a book well worth reading on worship and Jesus the Great High Priest (esp. chapters 5 - 12). Here's how Hebrews describes our Sunday morning worship: "But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled nlood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." It's not that the early church's worship was any more glitzy than ours, it's that we don't often recognise the significance of what we're doing. I don't think worship (or Christian faith for that matter) is fundamentally about us, it's about Jesus. I think a good plea for worship is the one Donna Dinsmore gave us - to come and "be fully present to God and fully present to one another" - end of rant :-)
2:34 PM
So if someone who isn't a Christian sings songs about God, that's still worship? I'm not saying that worship depends on how we feel, it just seems weird that you can "[proclaim] God's worth", not mean what you proclaim, and that's sweet as. You say we try and weed out unsuitable songs but, really, if that's the case, why would it matter?
3:01 PM
Hmm, I don't think that's quite the logical extension of what I'm saying and I think this can become a bit of a word game (do you really think that I mean it doesn't matter what we sing?). Christian faith is just that - Christian. My point is that what makes Christian faith acceptable isn't how we feel but the reality that Christ is in our midst by his Spirit, drawing out praise to God and presenting it perfect in him. Overfocussing on us, how we feel and what we do can end up cutting God out. Words in songs matter because we're not worshipping any god but the God of Jesus Christ (a specific story revealed in Jesus). I am very nervous with you deciding whether you feel like worshipping or not, that Christian worship is up to you to opt in or out - it seems very human centred (in the same way as if the Red Hot Chilli Peppers were coming to town I'll choose to go or not). I don't think we're consumers of worship but participators with Jesus by his Spirit.
3:40 PM
I used that example because it looks the same to me. Just as a non-Christian singing songs to God isn't worship (because they don't mean it), surely the same is true for Christians (when they don't mean it either).
Overfocussing on us, how we feel and what we do can end up cutting God out
What I'm talking about isn't cutting God out. If you're not meaning what you sing, somewhere along the way God has obviously already been cut out, no? And I'm not really saying I decide when to worship or not, it's just when I find myself not actually meaning what I sing, it feels I'm not truly worshiping God anyway.
Gotta go to work now. Look forward to what you have to say, dawg.
4:01 PM
Ok, I'll say that you're trying to give God appropriate worthship so don't want to be false.
What about when you don't feel like God is present, is God still present? What about when you don't feel like doing what Jesus says because it's too hard, are you still a Christian?... Can you see what I mean by it seems to lead towards a faith that puts us at the top of the heap and God gets the glory if we feel like it? That's my worry, (a) faith becomes about whether we feel like it (consumerist) and (b) it leads to a poor reflection of the biblical witness of the trinitarian dynamics of worship.
4:31 PM
"Ok, I'll say that you're trying to give God appropriate worthship so don't want to be false. "
Are you saying that this by itself is OK?
And yes, I do see what you mean. Would it be right to say that (b) is a result of (a)
4:41 PM
Just when you thought it was safe to go back onto the blog site... (Jaws music in the background) :-)
It was meant a (smug) benefit of the doubt comment that I'm sure you're wanting to worship God appropriately rather than "consume" Christianity on your terms. In terms of b or a first, I think it's a bit of both (chicken and the egg - what comes first?). I think a good case could be said that the poor trinitarian theology of the church has proved fertile soil for consumerism in worship... Now I'm being picky! How about we say "both/and" rather than "either/or" - gotta love paradox!
9:53 AM
Wow, I feel like im stepping into a boxing ring here !!
I guess i should clarify a little, (even though you guys have pretty much covered it) I wasnt meaning we choose when to worship or not, like we dont 'feel' like it today so we wont, or we dont 'like' this type of music/whatever so we wont worship, but when asking the question 'Whats worse- to worship untruthfully or not at all?' i meant like getting caught up in the 'atmosphere'and what the 'group' is doing etc that we arent being truthful. Not 'i dont feel like it today' but 'I dont wanna do this if i dont mean it and if im only doing what the crowd is, or letting the 'atmosphere' etc affect me.
9:12 AM
That helps to Claireyfy what you mean :) I thought you meant something other than the hype stuff. Now I'm left asking myself, why am I defensive about church worship and not the hyped up worship? Woe is me!
11:06 AM
Oh 'Boom boom' on the Pun PAndy !! (Do you know that joke? If not get me to explain it to you one day!)
Have fun studying !!